Trust Not The System.
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Also known as "Questtrek".
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I make art and occasionally games.
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🩷💜💙
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I always try to give the best feedback possible.
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I am open to playtesting if you want another opinion.
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Death to AI!
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Feel free to PM me about anyting.
California
Joined on 4/8/21
Graphic is gorgeous
Summary is succinct
I concur with your points about the paywall, and that a manual approval form would be a nice addition -- making the supporter feature a more or less convenience fee for upload powers
Still got to check out your guide when I get time. @TomFulp, you may be interested in these stats!
Fantastic graphic and superb blog! I thank Yatsufusa if I discovered it thanks to the message users can put at the end of the site main page. I also linked it to the 2024 Year-End Recap thread made by Tom Fulp so everyone can see it and read it.
Thank you for the service! Gradually I am starting to learn how to distinguish Suno tracks and study their characteristics in order to flag them. I recently flagged 5 AI-generated images and had them taken down (my numbers ofc pales compared to yours but I am happy to have contributed even a little to make this place a better place). I hope to master my listening skills to do the same with audio.
@Quest
"Not to get too political", but educating the people will only work if the people are willing to be educated / educate themselves. At this point you are advocating for a better, smarter, more informed humanity. I'm all for it! But from personal experience and the latest results of recent elections all over the world it just sounds a tad too optimistic. (To make the subtext text: Yes, I am saying "People are dumb!")
I also see Art Portal submissions (plural) get frontpaged that feature narcotics and are age rated as "E". At some point, either a Moderator or Mister Fulp looked at those images and said "Heyyy! Finally something for today's frontpage!" and left it at that.
Please do not get me wrong: I _celebrate_ every single instance where I read a new post from you explaining how to identify these things* or that reminds our users "This is a problem by the way. One that we are having _RIGHT_NOW_!" and having an actual statistic that puts subjective terms such as "way too many" or "I find about 30-ish a week - others might find even more/different tracks" into harder numbers is extremely helpful when discussing a topic that the userbase has no hard data for.
As I said: I am not a fan of a "paywall" to attempt and solve this particular problem either. In my eyes, this is currently an issue of 'volume'. I absolutely agree that Audio/Art Portal "artists" who get on the front page with AI generated work should get the ban hammer so hard that it gets stuck. But that is a small number of cases. When I look at the most recent PM I got from a moderator I see clear indicators of burnout. Burnout inflicted on them from a voluntary position they accepted "for the common good". Either we need to double the number of (currently 'active') moderators or we need to reduce the influx of crap. Reducing the influx of crap will _also_ reduce the workload of users who still write reports on these things. I'd say 13% of my time spend on NG is usually spend by writing reports. 'This is not fun for me _either_'... :/
And I'm sure 'you' would rather spend your time doing other things as well. (I'm looking forward to your upcoming project, btw. To the people who find this conversation engaging/interesting/important: Consider following Quest.)
* But how does a "crusty" sound sound?
doing gods work out there bestie
I rarely ever listen to uploaded music on here. The few times I have, almost all of it sounded equally synthetic to me--even when I could tell for sure it was made by a human (which wasn't too often). An electronic drum track is an electronic drum track whether set up by a man or an algorithm. I'm sure I've heard a few AI-generated tracks by now...& wasn't aware of it at the time. How _do_ you tell them apart from some hack using Soundforge or Audacity?
Suno AI and Udio AI are rarely used to make just a drum loop, they generate entire songs that can have any instrument and vocals too. A song with a single electronic drum track isn't the problem, it's when entire songs are made with AI, as they're trained onother artists work without their consent, and there's no effort put into the songs. It's like songs made entirely out of premade loops (which also isn't allowed on Newgrounds), but much worse.
I'm working on a guide right now for helping users detect AI, but my best advice right is to listen to the vocals if the song has them. They will sound scratchy and strange, and never like a single person. Many Suno AI tracks will have what I call "crusty high tones", where the track will have this undefinable screechy instrument, which kind of sounds like an electric guitar, trumpet, and a chinese flute all at the same time. It sounds awful and it's hard to miss.
Here's an example of a Suno AI track, uploaded to Newgrounds a month or so ago:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JVNh1HYzwxgCXmAMzka1wJUUF8l5A9md/view?usp=sharing
Complete with scratchy vocals and crusty high tones.
>@Yatsufusa
>"Yes, I am saying 'People are dumb!'"
Welcome to the real world, sonny. That is the only reasonable conclusion for any observant person with an IQ above room temperature. I came to it yeeeaaarrrrs ago. Most people aren't bright, & are cognitive misers.
...you realize, of course, that the above fact is one of the reasons why Plato wrote _The_Republic_, right?
@Yatsufusa @ShadenLines I know people are dumb. Especially kids, which appears to be the majority uploaders of AI tracks. I know people don't want to learn. That's why I said I may sound naïve trusting in people's ability to learn. I'm not saying that education is the one solution to fix everything. As much as I hate paywalling the audio portal, I can't argue that it would probably be effective at preventing AI tracks from from entering the AP. I think it's an awful idea that will ultimately prevent many real artists from entering the portal too, but hey, maybe silence is better than screeching robots. (I am being sarcastic, if you couldn't tell.) In all seriousness though, many users on Newgrounds, especially ones who are here to create and add to the site, are not dumb, and are just not experienced with AI, such as yourself. I've personally PM'd about 30 musicians in 2024 warning them after they left a glowing review on an AI track, and told them how to know if something is AI. Some of these same mucisians later found other AI tracks and knew to report them. While not everone will want to learn, it is imaprative that the site's musicians know what to look for, and that the option to learn is at least availible. I don't like critisizing the moderators or admins, or whomever frontpages songs, but there should NEVER be a frontpaged AI track, let alone multiple throughought the year. They are the ones that arguably need to know how to detect AI the most, and the people in most dire need of education.
The last frontpaged AI track had over a thousand views, and no one noticed. It had been a week since it was frontpaged. I don't think anyone else flagged it. If literally one out of the thousand people that listened to it knew what Suno AI sounds like it would have never stayed up that long. How it got there in the first place is a far more imprtant issue, but the fact that 1000 people didn't know highlights the need for education. A single AI hunter can go a long way.
So these AI-generated tracks have the same ethical issue as the "art" so despised by artists/NG-izens like myself...no surprise there.
I did hear a sort of smooth-staticky feedback throughout most of the tune, if that's what you were referring to. *skibidi skibidi toilet go to Waffle House with Donald Trump bumpity-bump skibidi skibidi...*
@ShadenLines Yes, everyone did. And I mean "everyone". _Especially_ those with an (estimated) IQ 'under' 90 tend to think of themselves as smart and of others as dumb.
I was pointing out the obvious so bluntly 'because' you aren't "supposed" to say it, but I felt a bit agitated, given the nature of the subject. As I wrote above: I love Quest's selfless work for the NG Audio Portal, but... While I agree with the point that educating the community would be extremely helpful, but only very few people will want to educate themselves to subsequently put that knowledge to use. And I wanted to drive that home.
Even if Quest made a game (with medals) that trains the player to identify AI, many players would try to look up if somebody published a cheat-sheet somewhere - because they care about 'having' the medals more than 'earning' the medals. That's the community we are talking about.
Education in this matter 'would be' the way forward if we had a better... humanity. At least from my perspective.
I read the title and got scared for a second. Then I read the post. Thank you for your service!
@Quest I also see a lack of flagging/reporting by users in general as an issue. That's part of the reasons why I wrote my "FAQ"*: Some users here are unable to figure this out even when getting harassed. Their approach (at best) is to whine about it in the Artist News when they are getting offensive reviews or to talk back to an abuser in a reply field - with the (flag-)button to their salvation right next to it. A few more people have figured out how to 'block' other users, but not 'that' many.
Of course I'm mainly talking about users who are ("probably") minors, but they grew up in a world where the internet was a thing. How they are unable to do some basic 'online self-defense' is beyond me. They should be way better at this than little old me. ...And if they do not figure this out to improve 'their own' situation...
I think you will _absolutely_ be able to educate 'some' people such as Tom Fulp, the Audio Portal Moderators, and the core of the NG-crowd.
Right now we have a few users reporting offenses to a limited number of (volunteer) Moderators each and every day. A subset of whom probably dreads logging in and seeing the number of open reports they have to tackle day after day. Even if we had more educated users and additional Moderators, all of them are fighting 'stupidity/uncaring-ness paired with automation'. Unless we find a way to lock all the children who play Geometry Dash out of the internet AS WELL AS all the people who think they can make an easy living/get famous as a "music maker" by generating tracks with a free AI (that everyone can use, from what I hear), our best form of defense would be "prevention": To introduce some kind of 'hurdle'. A form they have to fill out, a paywall of sorts... (To the best of my knowledge those are all the preventive suggestions users have made so far.)
I prefer filters where a person has to present "proof" in a prepared setting (like said form) to automated scans for AI tracks. Ideally there would be some kind of test that uploaders would have to take that test basic knowledge on the matter. About stuff a person who created their songs themselves would inevitably know. At the very least, it would filter out the people who cannot even look up a cheat-sheet. ;) (And it has been established that members of the GD community do not communicate with each other. So they would not "help each other out".) But I ultimately think that a paywall is a stronger deterrent.
The last decade I checked, 'Steam' asks users for $US 100 before they can offer a game for sale - 'and' Steam gets a cut for each sale on top of that.
itch.io does 'not' ask for this initial investment and generously lets users decide what their cut will be.
I 'know' that Steam is not "all bad" but I still refuse to get a Steam account.
On the other hand I yesterday criticized the 'itch.io community' with the words "They would upload the dirt under their fingernails if they could." Similarly to NG, itch.io allows sharing/selling a lot of stuff - and basically for free. If there was a bigger hurdle, people would upload less of their lazy Patreon advertisements, "tests", "WIP"s, walk cycles, glorified stickmen, scratches they recorded with their phone's microphone... You get the point. "Everything by everyone" generates a flood of garbage that nobody wants to look at in the first place that drowns out more skilled work.
I predict that, if artists had to put 'their' money where their mouth is (instead of Tom Fulp's money/the donator's money), a lot of them would shut up.
I 'dislike' the paywall, but 'I am convinced' that it would be effective. And not just in the Audio Portal... We might give up on the daily awards in favor of more meaningful weekly ones, but I do not think the general user base would hate that increase in quality.
The lazy Patreon advertisements would most likely stay, though. (Since the animators actually generate money there - or at least have 'hopes'.)
Yatsufusa
First and foremost *loudly slaps their hand on the blackboard to make sure everyone is awake*:
_Thank_you,_Quest!_
You put in a _tremendous_ amount of time and effort for the common good! Your work not only "keeps the Portal clean", it gives actual music 'by actual artists' a better chance of "being discovered" in the Audio Portal - rather than have it being drowned out by AI mishmash that was artificially generated.
I hope @TomFulp will draw some consequences and permanently disable the use of music from Newgrounds in Geo-- Erm, I meeean: I hope @TomFulp will look into the root-cause behind the vast majority of these submissions and decide on appropriate measures.
I share the general "Do we really have to?"-sentiment when it comes to the "paywalled" solution that was recently foreshadowed*, but seeing these numbers I think: "Maybe we do..." I feel sorry for the young artists who genuinely cannot afford to spend 3 dollars. But the (unpaid) labor the volunteers (users like yourself and @G2961 as well as the moderators) have to put in to combat this issue has gotten out of hand long ago.
* https://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1540483
Quest (Updated )
I do not like the idea of making users pay for uploading audio, even if these numbers from myself are a bit shocking. Just slapping a paywall on it won't fix the root problem. One of the last big AI users I reported was scouted and frontpaged. The frontpaged track was made by Suno AI, and had been listened to by over 1000 people with no one recognizing or reporting it. Just a cherry on top, it was used for a featured Geometry Dash level too (which was why it was generated in the first place). Putting a paywall on audio uploads is not going to make people wiser, just AI users more cunning. People need to be directly educated about AI if we want to make a difference. I also made the point that over two thirds of the AI songs I reported had that oh-so-telling 192kbps bitrate. There are patterns in AI tracks which can can be used to detect them. AI detection software would be really nice, but I understand how letting these tracks rot in the unscouted section is FAR cheaper than specialized software.
I said it before, and I'll say it again; Education is the way forward. The fact that AI tracks have made it to the frontpage multiple times shows how dire eductaion is needed, for moderators, admins, supporters, and general users alike. AI tracks are less likely to make it to the frontpage, and users will know what to hear for and be more likely to report it. A paywall would block most of the symptoms, but not really cure anything. I'm sorry if this sounds naïve or overly faithful in people's ability or desire to learn, but I really think educating everyone would be extremely helpful in combatting AI in the Audio Portal.
Edit: Leavesz made some good points, and brought up the idea of an approval form which I had also suggested on a previous post or comment somewhere (couldn't find it specifically).
https://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1540483#bbspost27985159_post_text
If a paywall is instituted, I feel like an apoval form system should be put in place for all the users who cannot or do not have the means to pay. I would personally sift through approval forms if it meant keeping the Audio Portal open for everyone.